That ain't gonna be so simple....just exactly what 'other job' is a Lawyer actually capable of doing? ....

I suppose at the end of the day it may just be differences due to how we view responsibility on a national level.  Where I'm from we do (in more ways than not) accept responsibility for one another (even if it's begrudgingly).  Something which I suppose might be difficult to understand if you've not been exposed to/immersed in that sort of thinking or way of life.  I'm sure we are looked at around the world as fairly socialist  as a result (and I don't want this comment to derail the thread I'm simply agreeing that there may in fact be truth to the "fundamental disagreement" you allude to) but with some minor quibbles it does seem to work for us. 

It's easy to arm-chair quarterback but unless people come together (determine the future of their society is worth it) and create those programs I talked about in earlier posts etc. and thereby effect change (change the course of society......or to use your own words.....change the way the chips fall) things will continue on in the same manner.  While inaction towards the former doesn't necessarily suggest "apathy", it doesn't take much to see that that is the prevailing attitude of most people towards almost everything they don't have express interest in these days.  

Not at all.  Free will goes to action.  Yes we are all responsible for our own individual actions.  Actions which make up the sum of the greater whole.  The whole (sum of our individual contributions) which represents something to someone somewhere (locally or worldwide).  That "something" (whether definable as an image/preception or other resulting product) is something we all have responsibility towards.  Changing that whole (sum of our individual parts) does start with each of us individuals, but if we say we don't feel responsiblity towards or culpability for the whole this allows us to simply forego directing any real effort towards change.

For instance, the actions of the rioters after the Stanley Cup game (a select few individuals) have tarnished the reputation of Vancouver (not just the few who did it).  The entire city is feeling the fallout of those actions and the entire city will need to work to change that tarnished reputation.  I'm sure some in the city would love not to accept responsibility for making the reputation better again, but at the end of the day success or failure will depend on how many people (even people with next to zero connection to the incident or its location) accept responsibility and make change happen. 

EDIT:  By the way Daiwa, I just want you to know I've thoroughly enjoyed having this discussion with you and have found your posts intellectually stimulating and a nice change of pace from the usual forum exchange.  Thank you for sharing your views with me.

You're assuming that directing 'real effort towards change', a thoroughly nebulous concept, will 'effect change' that you consider to be positive.  I can't change you.  Programs won't change you.  Only you can change you.  Programs won't change the way the chips fall unless they are rigged to favor some and disfavor others.  We've tried 'programs' for the last 50 years and I can't see that anyone is any better off, except for the administrators of the 'programs'.  Our prisons are maxed out, our children can't add, subtract or read.  That's what 'programs' have done for us.

Helping one another has been a hallmark of American life.  Although hardly the sole measure of 'compassion', the US is the most voluntarily generous nation per capita in the history of the world.  That's not the same as accepting culpability or taking responsibility for others' actions or failures.  In that, there is a distinction with a real difference.  I may gladly help you, and if we're lucky maybe help will favorably influence you and result in a change in you for the better, but I can't 'change' you, and I sure as hell won't bet the farm on you.

As for the Stanley Cup riots, I'd suggest the 'change' needed is to arrest and prosecute the rioters.  That will do more for Vancouver's reputation than anything else.  False 'buffing of the tarnish' by public navel-gazing and mea culpas ('coming together to effect change') won't do squat, certainly not for tourism.  And I ask again, in different form:  Make what change happen, exactly?

EDIT post your EDIT: Likewise, Monk.

I think you've found the Achilles heel of that plan.  I'd say Shakespeare's approach is the only answer.

This is where what I said earlier comes into play.  While I can't speak to the success or failure of programs in the US, I can say that numerous social programs started in Canada have had varying degrees of success (some of course have failed as well).  Our prison populations aren't exactly getting smaller either, but there are some really good programs being run in some of them (my wife volunteers in one of them).  I'd say "real effort towards change" is a completely measureable substance up here even if I shrink the sample to just our local community.  From the local volunteers who patrol and pick up trash in the neighborhood to the the many school-related and after-school programs being offered (many with no public funding just volunteer effort) it is fairly easy to see the difference being made each day.  All it takes for that to happen is a few individuals taking responsibility (even where it couldn't possibly be expected of them) and making a difference.  There were a few really bad neighborhoods in the centre of our city and with a lot of effort from many people  (most of whom had no real "responsibility" towards those neighborhoods) things began to change.  Of course these changes don't happen overnight, and the gains may seem small for effort expended but every little bit does help.

See above.  I think my response directly above also applies here.  The world is not roses, rainbows and pink unicorns but sometimes our own cynicism can be our biggest hurdle in perpetuating change.  I choose to believe the glass is half-full with everyone around me.  That doesn't mean I'm not routinely proven wrong, it just means I'll die before I stop trying.

every village needs an idiot. It prolly don't pay well, but the hours are good.

Fundamentally wrong.

A bushman goes berserk and kills a baboon in Zambia in a sadistic manner. Conclusion? The Inuit in Alaska and the Mongolian horse tender share equally in the bushman's guilt.

On what planet?

There are varying degrees of "involvement". That's the way the law and the world are structured: Not in the manner suggested by your "Universal".

If you truly believe as you profess, request to stand trial for the lulzSec folk. See what the Judge says.

WOW!  You were being kind to lulzSec compared to that article! (And I like Neowin as a source of news and tech stuff).

Don't fight it. The process has begun. You will be part of our anti-collectivist collective. Resistance is futile.

I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Your ass is malted.

As do I.

How true.

the_Monk and Diawa have made some real good points, very thoughtful debate. Thank you.

While I agree with points both of you I agree more with the_Monk. Let's take a few posters in this thread calling for vigilante justice. If these comments are found to be acceptable and perpetuate in other general discussions and then reflected by the media and fiction stories heros, do the people that voice these opinions publicly have any responsibility when an innocent man is beaten and burned to death by some mob who are constantly exposed to such opinions?

You are throwing this way out of context and need to understand community. The U.S. can be described as a community with a general set of values and rules which do not apply to some bushman half way around the world that has never been exposed to them. However children in the U.S. are exposed every day to these values and rules and are shaped by them from day 1. Children that are outside of the "norm" are ostrasized and have to learn to join in the way everyone else thinks and acts or is doomed to fail in society. Young people are shaped by their society so their society should take responsibility for there actions.

Canadians and Americans are very similar with these values accept for one major difference is that American society was founded on revolution while Canadians still suckle on the queen. I have great respect for the American founding fathers, the constitution and the bill of rights while not near as much for my own fathers of federation. 50 years ago for an American to discuss revolting again against the government and/or tyranny was almost unheard of and if they did they were seen as extremist and wack jobs but not any more. It is becoming more and more prevalent in discussions and even mentioned in the media without that stigma attached to it. So is it really that hard to understand that young people start to rebel or revolt against corporations or government when all they are exposed to is discussions and media that tell them they have no say whatsoever in a system that is badly broken and there is no hope in hell they will be better off than their parents were which is the basic rule of capitalism.

Give people a forum where they can be heard and more power in the governments decisions (which only rich lobby groups have now) and a prospect of prosperity and it will return to where when people talk about rebelling are seen as extremists.

EDIT: 

Herd behavior in human societies

The philosophers Søren Kierkegaard and Friedrich Nietzsche were among the first to criticise what they referred to as "the crowd" (Kierkegaard) and "herd morality" and the "herd instinct" (Nietzsche) in human society. Modern psychological and economic research has identified herd behavior in humans to explain the phenomena of large numbers of people acting in the same way at the same time. The British surgeon Wilfred Trotter popularized the "herd behavior" phrase in his book, Instincts of the Herd in Peace and War (1914). In The Theory of the Leisure Class, Thorstein Veblen explained economic behavior in terms of social influences such as "emulation," where some members of a group mimic other members of higher status. In "The Metropolis and Mental Life" (1903), early sociologistGeorge Simmel referred to the "impulse to sociability in man", and sought to describe "the forms of association by which a mere sum of separate individuals are made into a 'society' ". Other social scientists explored behaviors related to herding, such as Freud (crowd psychology), Carl Jung (collective unconscious), and Gustave Le Bon (the popular mind). Swarm theory observed in non-human societies is a related concept and is being explored as it occurs in human society.

Nope.  And I don't believe anyone here has called for 'vigilante' justice, only actual justice - vernacular/colloquial phrases are just that.

Can people be swayed by smooth talkers?  History absolutely says so - see Hitler, A. & Jones, J.  But every individual they influenced was personally responsible for their own actions.

the_Monk, Diawa and myfist0 have all provided enlightening arguments for social responsibility, and yes, I do believe that we as a society (US) have a responsibility to provide an environment to raise our children to be respectful and responsible. We're not doing this, we've done nothing to alter the cycle of piss poor parenting. The current solution is to leave it up to the individuals or allow each state to mandate what is acceptable. We need a standardized set of "something" and the necessary funding to make that happen. Even then it would take a couple of generations to notice any positive changes. Unfortunately, this does not appear to be a priority here. Our corrective action process does not attack the root cause but deals out punishment for the incidents.

Then we have some posters who choose to ridicule others for their comments. Their sanctimonious attitudes permeate their responses that leave no room for discussion or debate. My way or the highway, with us or against us, etc.

Actual justice eh.

Not a justice system of a country I want to live in.

My point still stands that this is seen as acceptable discussion and is even hosted by a "moderator".