It's a sad day when we can't separate the concepts of sympathy and justice.

I felt tremendous compassion when I saw Jeffrey Dahmer's father say when he met him after his arrest his son told him, "I guess I blew it really bad Dad"...and his father replied, "You're still my son".

David Berkowitz, a.k.a., "Son of Sam", has changed immensely in prison and is even admired by his guards and fellow prisoners and he sated that he never wanted to be released because no matter how much he has changed, he can never undo the murders and harm he did--but they killed people.

You don't have to hate people to want justice.

When people do something that causes real harm and it's because of complete foolishness and disregard for the people they hurt or the damage they did, they need to be punished.

I guarantee you some troopers families will have fear for a long time now because of what these guys did.  It's not "all good, man"

and if it's only "hate" or "love", then not wanting justice for victims means you must hate them.  You can't have it both ways.

Yup, Philly: They have. Now WE have to give THEIR lives meaning. They don't need jail, they need a social worker.

I think i just became a fan of the monk.  You and I see eye to eye on this.

I entirely agree, its just that in this case DrJBHL is spreading hate.

On that note, to DrJBHL, some things that stand out to me in your post:  Your people exist now, they don't exist in the crusades.  I was formulating an example about the idiocy of your zealous remarks, and the crusades are a perfect example of religious stupidity. 

I was going to apply for border patrol when I got out of the navy.  After doing a cost benefit analysis, I figured that the money was not worth it because i would have to live in fear of retaliation at all times.  The fear comes with the job.  Another analogy I could use is a marine wanting to serve on the front lines.  If the enemy gets intelligence about your position (which is always a risk), and is hunting you down, you can hate them all you want, but they are acting just as you are acting, and they are still human as well.  The truth of the words "all is fair in love and war" come to mind, you made choices to be in that situation.

This does make the families peril much greater, but who is to say that these drug cartels aren't already aware of the families locations of the immigration officers?  They are Cartels after all, they do business in blood, and they have infiltrated the border patrol. The border patrol was easy to infiltrate, because congress put in an order of 30,000 "must fill spots" a few years ago that they were desperate to fill with anyone.

The way I see it, these families took the bait and bought the beliefs and are themselves a part of this war.  They are responsible for their actions.  I sympathize with their plight, I cannot abide fear and honestly in their position I would band together and arm myself and get ready for some action, especially if my spouse was in immigration.  People need to defend themselves, and the government does not have the resources to protect them.  This is perfectly legal, our constitution actually states that congress is supposed to arm  militias(and they still do if you know who to call).

When you stop taking your own protection into your own hands, and rely on these "peacekeepers", a whole host of problems open up. 

I refuse to say that their are "sides", love and hate are not "sides", they are emotions that have their proper place.  You can both feel love and hate for the same person/thing for different reasons, you can be in a love hate relationship with many people.  It is the strength of these emotions that can be questioned, and I feel that DrJBHL is far to strong on this aspect when he himself admits that he isn't being affected by the hackers.

That is why he comes across as religious zealot and therefore this conversation becomes irrelevant.

Of course times have changed.  But we as a society are still responsible for how our children have grown up and what they become.  For instance, one of my sons has aspergers disease (which someone suggested one of these "individuals" might have).  I as his parent have to step up and make sure that I understand exactly what that is about, how to effectively manage it/him, and how to help him integrate successfully into society.  Until I've done all of that, my job as a parent is incomplete and may even be deemed negligent.

We are (collectively as a society) a small part of what we once were, a larger part of whom our parents allowed/nurtured us into, and part whom we've allowed/nurtured our children into.  We all have resposibility in everything that happens.  When things like these happen, the best form of action is to stop focusing on the "punishment" and or "celebrations" but rather on prevention of further such actions.  The best prevention of such is to promote things like better education, programs to allow those with "syndromes" (if that is in fact a reason why some individuals act out) to use their skills for production and not destruction, better and more encompassing social programs to help our children who find themselves in the precarious position of (for the first time in human history) actually "knowing more" than their parents and don't sometimes know how to properly assert that knowledge in dealing with that and bringing the associated skills to good use.

The above is not just my opinion.  It is in fact the right thing to do.  Those of you so focused on right and wrong should have no difficulty understanding that.

the Monk

Separating 'celebrations', as you call them, from the argument, the ethos reflected in your position is arguably at least one reason lulzSec exists.  The notion that perpetrators of (insert bad/criminal behavior here) deserve some slack because someone else failed to prevent their behavior is so pervasive that 'prevention' is something of a conundrum.  There is a point where 'focusing on prevention' becomes enabling.  The proliferation of laws holding parents accountable, across the board, for the criminal actions of their children has been particularly pernicious.  How does making a parent, no matter how conscientious, a criminal help the child?  Furthermore, children are not completely stupid - they are smart enough to understand the leverage such laws give them, without a correspondingly developed sense of judgment. 

FWIW, I am also speaking as the parent of a child with Asperger's.

The Battle of the Meters is great.

Indeed true, there are laws for everyone. Mitigating factors, no matter which can become 'licensing' or enabling. Children can indeed become quite adept at 'button pushing' and taking advantage of perceived 'exceptions' and 'excuses'.

Parenting is never an easy thing for either party.

apathy isn't a defense, I accept your surrender.

Nowhere do I say any person(s) should not be held accountable for any/all of their actions.  I'm simply asking for some restraint of our own judgement and re-actions to these individuals.  Nor did I say anything about someone "deserving slack".

I have never given any of my children a "free pass" (not even the son with aspergers), and I certainly do not advocate that anywhere in the world.  Quite possibly these individuals were given a "free pass" too many in their childhood which might have fueled perceptions of "entitlement" etc. etc.   There is nothing enabling about love done right.  Love "done right" opens doors, shows new paths and opportunites, nurtures skills in the right way, and challenges viewpoints and ideals (many people can't see the forest for the trees and just need a little help).  However hate can never be "done right" as the only result of hate is more of the same.

When I speak of providing more for our new generations (as in my post reply #80) I'm talking about providing more direction, more guidance, more stability not more excuses or leverage.  That is something we collectively as a society must accept responsiblity for, and if we're failing at that (which I do believe to a large degree we currently are) then that is where to start with regard to "fixing" these issues.

the Monk

I agree with the sentiments expressed in #86 as they apply to individuals, with a couple of quibbles.  You can't judge whether love was indeed done right by the outcome alone - love done right doesn't always work.  Furthermore, there are countless ways to do love right - no one has a monopoly.

In my view, it's not possible for 'society' to collectively accept responsibility in the sense you imply.  'Society' isn't where you 'start'.  'Society' is derivative of, the sum of, individual actions and behavior.  Only if a sufficient number of individuals accept responsibility will 'society' have done so.

Nevertheless, your comments lead me to believe you are a conscientious parent deserving of respect.  That's all society can hope for.  And I wish all the best for your son.

No of course on cannot only use outcome alone as judgement of method however it is usually a fairly good indicator of whether certain methods were even attempted or not.  It is truly unfortunate that there are so many cases where even as you put it "love done right doesn't always work".  Also, while there may be countless ways to "do love right" I think it can be agreed the ways I pointed out regarding how one could go about doing so could only contribute to same.

I think I may have just expressed myself in a somewhat backward way as your point is perfectly in line with my thinking.  I guess when I say things like "we must take responsibility for things as a society" and "that is where to start" I'm expecting the point to get across that if we as society accepted our culpability for things as they currently are then more of the individuals who make up that society would start doing the right things (ie. the things discussed in our previous exchanges).

I also wish your son (*edit* that's assuming a son otherwise read daughter) the best.  It is an interesting road to be the parent of an asperger's child and one although requiring much patience has the potential for many rewards as well.

I am not responsible for lulzSec or any such bunch of obnoxious children.....[I chose NOT to breed]...but if you wish me to be...I shall take responsibility....just give me the gun and point me at them.

They are a waste of space.

There are enough 'real people' on the planet to have consideration/respect/sympathy/whatever for..... those that chose to live OUTSIDE accepted social rules can suffer for their own choices, stupid or otherwise.

I suppose we're closer to agreement than not, Monk, but I don't agree that 'society' is culpable or that any sort of top-down societal 'fix' is either possible or desirable, the latter because it let's us off the hook too easily.

Yes, it has been an interesting road, one with no end I'm afraid.  Figuring out what constitutes 'help', in the sense that it enables some degree of independent success and happiness in its inevitable eventual absence, has been most challenging.  That riddle remains mostly unsolved here.