I agree.

You are right in a generic sense, and many groups are to be feared.  However, I do not believe Lulzsec is such a group.  They have not demonstrated any great talent, or maturity.  The worst ones are the ones that do it and you know, but they do not have to prance around like ponies when they do.  Lulzsec is showing all the signs of a bunch of bored spoiled brats.

The real way to combat these types of targeted attacks is to do exactly what I detailed in another thread. 

Just like with anything try not to make a target out of yourself.  An area in which the US as a world nation certainly needs some work.  As long as the US stomps around the world like a bull in a china-shop you're going to see more and more such US-targeted attacks taking place.

Sinperium, you yourself said "don't try to be the baddest guy in the bar.......etc. etc."  well the US needs to take some your own advice.   Uvah's statements of "Uncle sam don't play" also allude to the US's general "we're the greatest don't screw with us or you'll be sorry" attitude.   Neither of which are helping.  The US has some major work to do (on the world stage) to reverse the commonly held perceptions (true or not) with regard to its local and foreign policies.

Either way, as I've stated above.  These guys may get caught.......but it won't have much of an effect since more and more groups aspousing the same "values"  will just keep springing up.  We are meant to reap what we sow, and that is exactly what we are having to do at the moment.

1. It hasn't been proven where these punks are from nor where they currently are.

2. What they do is crime. They cloak it in 'noble causes', but they are criminal punks.

3. What the US does or doesn't do has no bearing with respect to these arrogant, self righteous scum.

4. They "target" anyone and anything they please. They boast about it. That will be their undoing.

5. They've pissed off all the wrong people, and their goolies (as Jafo puts it) will adorn someone's trophy wall.

6. When they're gone, some other criminal scum will float to the surface to become scalps on someone else's wall.

7. The new scum will be only that. Scum. What the US or any corporation, company or other country does or doesn't do won't matter. It'll be the scum's excuse, but the truth is: Scum is scum.

LulzSec falls into the same broad category of "Amorphous groups" as the original Minutemen, the Bolsheviks, the Egyptian/Syrian protestors, and Al Qaeda- they exist largely because of real or perceived attacks from some centralized authority. Thus, cracking down essentially feeds them. Smart policing and the right conditions may be able to keep them on a low level without the streets exploding, but really the only way to remove them is to lessen the conditions that allow them to grow: political and economic instability, and anything that might be seen as unnecessary force. Good luck with that...

They do http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair

Mrs. Wilson's husband, former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, has stated his opinion in various interviews and subsequent writings (as listed in his 2004 memoir The Politics of Truth) that members of former President George W. Bush's administration revealed Mrs. Wilson's covert status as retribution for his op-ed entitled "What I Didn't Find in Africa," published in The New York Times on July 6, 2003.
 http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/06/opinion/what-i-didn-t-find-in-africa.html

So by a few peoples standards, Scooter Libby and the black house staff are terrorists who should be labotamized and  ...

Nope. they wear a suits and work in a house full of banksters and war criminals so it's ok.

Obama administration cracks down on mid-level leakers, despite high-level officials dishing far more sensitive secrets to Bob Woodward MSNBC

So is the white house guy the terrorist or Bob Woodward or both?

Bunch of old women sittin around complaining about the hole in your stockings when your house is on fire.   
Keep up the good work.

Irrelevant.

Again, irrelevant.  It really doesn't matter what the group in question or anyone on the outside says.  Information breaches are occuring (whatever the motivation) and there isn't anything that really can be done about it (thanks largely to network infrastructure etc.) save not doing more things which may be seen by these groups as reason to continue with new attacks.

Again.  See my reply to your #2.  What a nation or government does locally or on the world stage has EVERYTHING to do with what some people may or may not use as reason enough to take "action" (whatever that action may be).  Your reply is somewhat ironic in itself considering that the US is largely looked at with similar terms in mind to those you just used to describe these individuals.  Maybe a healthy dose of humility on BOTH sides of the proverbial fence would do everyone a world of good? 

Seems like more of their attacks are being directed at US-held interests.  Again, might be worth looking into why that is....and more effective ways (ways that won't contribute to "feeding" the group's reasons for attacks) to deal with these groups and we will need to learn how to deal with these groups.  Trying to erradicate them is not going to work.

Wrong again.  Pissing off the "wrong" people in this case would be people like them only better.  That is most certainly not law-enforcement of any kind.  Law enforcement IT is years behind what some of these albeit "professional" (unlike the lulz group) groups are capable of.

As already stated in previous posts, on this point we obviously agree.

Again, please see above.  Every indvidual, business and nation collectively is responsible for the maintenance of a global "presence / image".  We do however not have control over how others view said presence or if they use said view to justify their own actions.  This is not to excuse anyone's behaviour, simply to explain how every action (including our own) has an effect.

the Monk

Please don't take everything I say to an obtuse extreme...it makes replying tedious.

We'll never catch "all" of anything...not all the criminals, not all the tax cheats, not all the murderers, etc., etc.

But these guys are mostly a bunch of immature kids and I think the majority really don't comprehend how hard they will be stomped on.  Feel sorry for them--even though it's their own stupidity that got them here.

As to the "USA" rants...meh.  I hear what--10,000 a day?

I love how we are the most evil kid on the block but guys like Kim Jong or Assad never get a mention by the perpetual ranters.  How about what's still happening in Sudan? 

Every nation has it's issues and none are perfect.  All have shameful and sometimes shining moments in their histories.  Sure we need to look at misdeeds and mistakes and address them.

I have no problem with that--it's the constant nothing but attack mode and extreme view that allows for nothing but "pure evil" that I find annoying.

Yeah, the USA is "pure evil"...satan runs the government, the moon landings were faked, the military are all baby killers and all politicians are all crack dealers and part of international child and sex slave trafficking and cover up UFO sightings because they have sold the earth to aliens.

...and the rest of the world are really all good folks with the only problems they may have caused by us.

Happy?

Oh, and Monk's from Canada--that explains his USA fixation.  I'd rant about Canada but I don't live there.

What point exactly are you trying to prove?  Pointing the finger at someone else's shortcomings doesn't lessen your own.  You do know that right?

If you'll notice my point simply addresses the fact that *most* of these "attacks" seem to be levied (as I've already stated previously in this thread) against US-held interests.  I was entering into discussion on that point (and possible reasons for that which include world-wide PERCEPTION of a nation) and not "ranting" about whatever other drivel your post dredges up.

You say "sure we need to look at misdeeds and address them......etc. etc." 

That is exactly what I'm saying needs to be done and you're arguing that I'm being obtuse?   <points finger at head and rotates>  

>>> IN REPLY #37 MIDDLE OF THE POST! <<< 

EDIT:  Yes I am from Canada.  I do not have a "USA fixation" rather a fixation on the truth of things.  The truth being everything I've posted in this thread which has not and will not ever be refuted by the kind of immature drivel posted in your posts.  So if you're trying to belittle me by suggesting I'm harping on US shortcomings keep trying.  I haven't harped on anything.  Of course the old saying "the truth hurts" does come to mind in these instances......hehe

My point is simply that the only problems "we" want to fix are the USA's.  "We" never seem to want to fix any other ones and it's the USA's that are always "the worst".

You have Iranian scientists  dancing and shouting "Praise God!"  and "Death to Israel" when they refine uranium isotopes.  You have the former head of the KGB who's now president and controls the government and media by shutting down democratic reforms.  You have a ongoing effort by Muslims with government support in Sudan to commit genocide on all non-Muslims.  You have atrocities throughout Africa in places like Uganda that beggar description.  You have a megalomaniac in North Korea  who executes people who speak publicly against him and has his people pray to his image every morning as "god" while he tries repeatedly to sell nuclear munitions around the world.  You have anti-Israeli terrorist groups putting satchel charges and explosive vests on mentally retarded pre-teens and senior-age Muslim mullah's marrying 11 and 12 year olds.  You had Syria just a couple of years ago build a clandestine nuclear refinement facility and then deny it ever happened when they got caught.

There's all kinds of evil things out there.  My question is, what are the non-USA related truths that "fixate" you?  You don't seem to have any.  I think you are just in the same boat as many today--knee-jerk reactionism that's been taught you by the media and your peers and has nothing to do with objectivity, critical thinking  or a desire for real justice.  Grab hold of the nearest popular public offense and use it as a vehicle to take shots because you just like to shoot.

Is there anything you are doing anywhere yourself to make things better or is it all just "outrage"?

Wow it does actually seem impossible to get you to understand that I didn't bring up, speak to or in any other way allude to any of the "sins" you're claiming I posted about.  Of course if you actually reread all of my posts in this thread you'd see just how invalid your accusations are.

Since you keep insisting on starting a debate about something which I didn't even post about I will cease responding to you as I don't want my actual points and those of others to get watered-down and the topic completely dismantled into something which it wasn't.

as always.......thanks for reading.

the Monk

Why feel sorry for them....they wouldn't comprehend the concept of remorse anyway.

Let them be culled through ignorance and ineptitude...it'll benefit the gene pool.

The little buggers are swimming in the shallow end as it is.....won't be hard to find.

I've been saying that all along....

Please prove this or do you like propaganda.

Sounds like Bush Sr. and Jr. did the patriot act and others that reduced freedumbs.

Again, more propaganda and take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry#World.27s_largest_arms_exporters 
OMG, Canadians made the list, must be referring to our hockey pucks 

Retarded? Really? I guess this is not near the shock and awe of throwing rocks at a tank.

Boy you do like your propaganda

Child Marriage Around the World
Percentage of girls marrying before the age of 18

1 Niger 76.6  http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2836.htm#relations US likes
2 Chad 71.5  http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/37992.htm#relations US likes
3 Bangladesh 68.7 http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3452.htm#relations US loves
4 Mali 65.4 http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2828.htm#relations US loves
5 Guinea 64.5 http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2824.htm#relations US trying
6 Central African Republic 57.0       I got bored
7 Nepal 56.1
8 Mozambique 55.9
9 Uganda 54.1
10 Burkina Faso 51.9
11 India 50.0
12 Ethiopia 49.1
13 Liberia 48.4
13 Yemen 48.4
15 Cameroon 47.2
16 Eritrea 47.0
17 Malawi 46.9
18 Nicaragua 43.3
18 Nigeria 43.3
20 Zambia 42.1

Source: ICRW 2007

And dont forget Jerry Lee Lewis and that whole wackado religion they had in that area.  

Israel has the same story. And India and Pakastan

I was about to type almost the same to you 

Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Section 11 of the Charter provides that one cannot be compelled to be a witness in a proceeding against oneself. 

Now back to topic. Start another thread Sin and I will happily debate you.

1. Leave religion out of Forums, please. Leave it out of my threads forever.

2. Guess we don't agree, the_Monk.

What the US (and I) do is irrelephant. These are sociopaths. They will get theirs, and I'll be smiling.

3. As for Israel and terrorists? Keep blaming the victims. They do to the US, Israel and anyone else who can't be blackmailed what their violent and hateful souls can get away with. That's the "why" of it, unless you swallow their "truth". The drones. etc. get them, and you won't catch me weeping at their funerals.

4. The problem with your response to my #3. is that to me (at least) you've come to believe their lies perhaps because they are reiterated so often. Reminds me of someone saying, "You made me do it."

Poppycock. No one "makes" anyone do anything. The choice to protest (if you choose to believe that) and the form of protest rmains with the individual. They range from doing nothing through the full spectrum to mass murder. The individual chooses. He/she still has free will.

5. The argument "the truth hurts" is invalid since to argue the point one must accept it's validity. I don't. I offered another vue.

6. I dislike the argument "US envy" for the same reason: Disagreement is not necessarily based on base motives. It can be for many others. I dislike the attribution of "envy".

My rant is over.  I feel better now.  Sorry. Amazing what no sleep does for you. 

I would love to come to the  forum once in awhile and not see a wall of video links, conspiracy theory cut and pastes and factoids of the extreme plastered for twenty pages all with the bottom line ending with, "The US is satan".  There are plenty of devils in the world.  Even when I think of countries with leaders who have purposeful, premeditated wicked intent I realize that they are just the leaders but the nation is the people.  I'll point to a particular leader and his actions but not whitewash the entire nation he represents as "wicked".

Continue on topic...

@Jafo...

I do and don't feel sorry for them.  For the 25-35 year old anarchists-nilhists living in their parent's basements and garages reading Mein Kampf and Nietzsche and then going online to win recruits to their borrowed philosophies I have no sympathy.

It's the young teens they suck in and agitate who don't realize what they are getting into that I feel some sympathy for...but they still get jail.

It's just amazing to me that these guys think if they interfere with law enforcement, national security or cost millions in business damages that people will just shrug and move on like nothing happened.

Like government or not--they actually have an army and aren't just claiming to be one virtually.