If it were ok to steal things because "they cost too much" and we could never afford them, we'd all be stealing huge warehouses to keep all our stolen goodies in.  Kind of makes me wonder how a person too poor to afford a song can afford the device to play it on, or maybe I've just answered my own question.

Of course, we do apply our expectations and standards everyday, if somewhat indirectly, in the form of advertising and just good old cultural imperialism. But yes, that's another debate entirely.

It's not really there to change your mind. I just wanted to look at another motivation behind piracy in addition to pure greed. Life's rarely so simple, and crime less so.

Technically, legally, it's not even theft Though I only bring that up for a laugh and nostalgia's sake.

I don't think you're a societal relic just yet, but I do think your beliefs are entering the minority. And, for the conviction to argue those beliefs, you're certainly rare enough. For most people, though, it's simply becoming "normal." To me, that suggests something will change, drastically, one way or the other. Ideally, copyright laws will see a comprehensive overhaul, as they aren't working as they should, and something will be done to "win the hearts and minds" of casual pirates.

Millions of people, in North America alone, are pirating casually. While I don't deny the fact that they are criminals for doing so, I will argue that it certainly points out that copyright laws aren't up to the task of protecting copyright holders under the system. They simple weren't conceived to deal with a digital world, and no amount of band-aid amendments and additions will fix that. I don't pretend to know how, exactly, they need to change, but I do see that they do. I think lawmakers and society as a whole need to look at the idea of copyright (especially digital copyright) from a completely different angle, and start fresh.

Changing the cultural attitude to resemble something more like yours is absolutely essential. But I'm not sure any attempts to influence public opinion will "take" unless we address some of the issues with a set of laws that are increasingly out of date.

Or, we could just do the draconian thing--keep propping up failing legislature with greater policing, tougher penalties, and questionable ISP policies--because that seems to go well in all those movies I download

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Man, there's just too much to say on this topic, but I need to cut myself off here so I can actually make something of my morning.

Well, as the law stands they are thieves. They will be caught... sooner or later. The penalties on the ISP level are far fron draconian... more like getting bitten by a 90 tear old who forgot his dentures.

Things might 'tighten up'. In any case, I still feel like taking something which is not mine (IP or Physical Property) is theft... and that is a crime. No movie is worth that.

In YOUR social circle perhaps?

Says a lot for your moral stance if your social circle considers it acceptable.

There are also 'social circles' where 9/11 is lauded as a great success.

Wow Jafo....

I have friends who pirate songs and movies, but they aren't bad people. I can't see them hijacking a plane and flying into a skyscraper...... 

I can almost always guarantee someone will fail to understand the meaning....either intentionally for the purpose of being argumentative or to demonstrate profound naivete.

To explain .... there are groups in ALL walks of life who believe what they do is acceptable TO THEM [and thus presume it is acceptable to all].

Does NOT make it right, or universally acceptable to/for others.

Whether it is due to pathetic upbringing [KKK followers]...indoctrination [Taliban] or social indifference [piracy] each is accepted within their own circle.... but not outside.

Please try not to be so obtuse ....it's actually NOT that abstruse.

You are though permitted to do the following under Australian law:
1. Copy music off a CD as long as it's for personal use, you own the CD and you don't give the copy or the original to someone else.

 am I missing something here?

myfist0....and your meaning is......?

...or are you just wanting to flame until you get burnt?

Neither did Madoff (fly a plane into a building).  So why did we arrest him and send him to jail?

This is violate our constitution and our privacy! Im sorry this is just wrong.

How can you talk about the Constitution when we have a president that disregards it at every opportunity?

Yeah that is true...that is why I am so sad that this great nation is becoming such an shity nation just like the rest of the world.  It make me MAD and sad at the same time... 

hey... c'mon fellas. Topic's ISP's. 

The Constitution has literally nothing to do with this, so let's leave that also. 

Jafo: I read your following post, so I understand the point you're desperately trying to make.

But PLEASE (for your own good), never ever ever try comparing someone downloading a free movie to someone flying planes into national landmarks resulting in the immediate mass-murdering of thousands of human beings.  To make such an incoherant, loaded statement removes a great amount of credibility from anything you say afterwards.

While this has been applied to criminal activity, it can also be applied to the greed of powerful companies and the filthy steenkin' rich.  While they think it is acceptable to make something for a dollar and sell it for twenty to gouge every cent possible from the market, I and many others find that totally unacceptable.  It may be their intellectual property, but when there is no decency in pricing [legalised theft] there will be some who fight fire with fire and take it indecently... er, steal it. 

Again, it comes back to the society they [the upper echelon] created.... and the greater the gap between the haves and the have nots, the greater the propensity for [the lower end of] society to steal.  There will always be somebody who covets another's property and therefore steals it, but a greater responsibility in pricing would see a significant reduction in petty theft.  For example, it costs music companies nowhere near a dollar to produce a digital song for download, far from it, in fact, yet most sell a song for a dollar and upwards.  Their actual costs nowhere near justify the price charged, and many people know and resent this, hence the inclination of some to download music [movies, games and software] 'illegally'. 

For mine, ISP's should not be charged with the responsibility of policing the internet.  No, it is the insatiable greed of corporations that needs to be addressed, and the best way to get them to look into responsible pricing is for consumers enmasse to speak against corporate greed by closing their wallets.