Sophistry, as before. PROPERTY IS PROPERTY. If you didn't buy it from nor were given it by it's owner, and you are in possession of it, then that is theft. END OF DISCUSSION.

No machine will tell me what I can or can't have, do or not do. Smacks too much of Orwell or 'Brave New World". You might like machines and relate well to them, but for me THEY are the servants. As for who'll give care to Africans, Americans or anyone else? That'd be me, not a machine and not you.

And yet you persist in name calling. You can't drag me into that foolishness. My last response to you is a bit of advice - heed well what Jafo told you...

Darvin3, I'm not sure where you got that idea. Such action would require a Court Order, so the accused would have to be served with papers regarding the pending request for seizure. Only after being served would it come up before a Judge and both sides would be represented in any action. Only after review of evidence and listening to expert witnesses as well as legal counsel would such an order be issued. The Senate Bill only defines what level of domain, etc. can be acted against.

Actually a public servant usually abuses their power, a machine could not if it was properly programmed.  In Brave New World, it was good ol humanity running the show if you remember correctly .  I think you should have used a terminator "skynet" approach on this analogy.  But then you realize it is possible once you understand the US mail distribution system, what a beautiful design, and a machine runs most of it.  Imagine what that could do when you strip politicians of their power of the purse and just let the program manage it all.  There might just be enough for everyone, perish the thought!

Oh I agree, I don't think of the Julian Assange fellow as a saint, but I for one think that his news is more real than the propaganda i've seen on the television.  I have no doubt he is doing this for his own intentions, for good or for ill.  Also, arrogance can sometimes be mistaken for confidence, I'm quite sure he knows hes got a lot of people by the balls. 

So, can you grow plants in your intellectual property?  There is a difference between the two, that is why it has been named a different name.  You acknowledged this fact when you used the term Intellectual Property.  The law acknowledges this fact by having special considerations made for intellectual property.  How is that Sophistry?  This is perfect logic.  Names are used to separate, hence why you have a name as an individual.  IP is a very different form of property, yes it is property.  IP really cannot be protected 100%, that is part of the risks of it.  Then there is the co invention.  Who so ever gets the patent in first wins, it doesn't matter who did it first.  Thieves can be people with the legal rights to IP as well.  If the other person is too poor to fight the monster that made money off of his case, then what?

You can only own the intellectual property for so long anyways, the reality is that your ownership is temporary at best, and the law understands this.  Do you own your land forever(as long as you pay your tax of course)?  Yes.  IP is most certainly a different type of property.  Remember, there are many forms of IP, i will re state the definition i started my contribution to the discussion with:

Intellectual property (IP) is a term referring to a number of distinct types of creations of the mind for which a set of exclusive rights are recognized—and the corresponding fields of law. Under intellectual property law, owners are granted certain exclusive rights to a variety of intangible assets, such as musical, literary, and artistic works; discoveries and inventions; and words, phrases, symbols, and designs. Common types of intellectual property include copyrights, trademarks, patents, industrial design rights and trade secrets in some jurisdictions.

I see it right there, copyrights, trademarks, patents, industrial design rights and trade secrets.  Most of those don't last a lifetime. 

Those who own IP know this, may be frustrated by this, but in all reality you can only make money on a new invention before it becomes impossible to prevent it becoming a part of the public domain.  Why fight the way things are already legally constructed?  There will always be a lot of risk when owning IP.  That will NEVER change.  Ideas are like air, in front of you one moment, gone the next.  Understand the limits.

 The law acknowledges the grey area, yet you see this only in black and white. 

Oh goodie, Skynet, perhaps.

Yep, that'll work a treat.

Metropolis was so much more elegant. [though not quite the same]...

Well, I'm with Doc on all this, I totally agree with his philosophy! ID and Jafo are the best, taking on the scum of the world!

Simply because almost ALL 'legally constructed' LAW is flawed..... either by artifice or design.

Quoting a 'definition' of IP is all well and good, just as is quoting discrimination between variations of Interpretation of Property Law.

I'm pretty bloody certain I never agreed to the establishment of limited ownership rights to MY OWN PROPERTY but am forced to acquiesce due to the vagaries of Common Law and its interpretations and undermining from/by vested interests.

If I create something it is my creation, no-one else's.  If I choose NOT to share it with others that SHOULD be MY RIGHT as I can argue my refusal affects no-one, as, without my artifice it would NOT exist at all.

Instead, I am FORCED by Copyright Law to eventually relinquish rights for some free loader's benefit [oh, shit... I mean 'common good'].

The Law is an ARSE. [you may say 'ass' but in Australia that's just too cutesy for words].

hmm I am now the scum of the earth, thank you for your intelligent input.

Lol i just saw this...you posted right before I did it seems.  Good stuff.  The law is imperfect for some, but then you can still get by quite nicely with what you do have yes?  I know you may believe you should own the world, and I would like to as well, but that just isn't possible.  Unfortunately there are more than one of us on this spinning ball in space.  Also, I wouldn't want to own everything if it meant that everyone else had to suffer.  There is a give and take whether you like it or not, at any extreme is instability and therefore trade offs must be made to meet somewhere in the middle, in the grey area.

The 'scum' to whom he referred is those who take and post/distribute others' work without consent, and also those who distribute warez.

If you are into such activities then you, too can be excised.

Stardock is a Game/software creator whose actual commercial viability provides for this Forum and subsequently for its avenue of discussion.  Associated to this are the many graphic artists [skinners] who contribute to Stardock's site content and thus to their softwares' popularity/success.

Stardock has a zero tolerance for warez and Copyright theft, though discussion/s re the morality/legality are acceptable [obviously]...

I have no interest in 'owning the world', just that bit of it I created from my own blood, sweat and tears.

You are entirely free to keep your bit, too, but you WILL NOT be taking mine just because you think you can.

It's about as ridiculous as dying intestate...and the Govt. taking [almost] everything.  If you're wondering everything I 'own' will be going to the RSPCA, Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels....

RSPCA? what is that?

Oh and thank you for not being a fascist, I really don't like those moderators with a god complex.

Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals

In the US it'd be the ASPCA ...

Actually at one time Wikipedia had me described as a 'fascist bastard' probably because the person who contributed those pearls of wisdom had just been IP Banned from Stardock's sites for being several shades of idiot...

I did not say thank you because i really don't understand the issue being discussed. re:  the IP.  I read these threads to become better informed.. but I am no expert (on IP tech, intellectual property law, etc.).  I do trust Doc, and if he says a thank you is deserved, than I say thank you!   Thank you I.D., thank you Jafo, thank you $ChixOr.  And, keep on keeping on!  All that it takes for evil to win is for a few good people to do nothing.   This trio is doing something.

As far as corporate taxes, yes, US companies pay the highest tax rates in the world.  Just ask GE.  I wish I could get the same negative c35% tax rate GE gets...   

Me too, Elana. Me too. Thanks for your trust... it means a great deal to me.  

This reminds me of a quote from the philosopher Jean Jacques Rousseau:

"The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naïve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody."

Honestly, Jafo's statement is a similar statement made by many artists. "I put work into this, so its mine." However, the concept property is not so clear cut, and reforms to Intellectual Property on seek to further obfuscate any clear definition of property. While Intellectual Property is at its most material in the forms of artistic expression, most forms of Intellectual property are questionable as to the public good which is served by its privatization. Consider Monsanto and its efforts to enforce genetic patents. Consider the entire field of Computer Science and its roadblocks simply due to the proliferation of non-open source code. It is not that one should be unable to profit from their work, but such profit at the cost of social, political, and technological advancement of the public good must be avoided at all costs.

Having to deal with RIAA and MPAA's gestapo tactics now, I agree.  This bill does not address the "big guys" abuses, and does little for the "starving artist". It is political payback - that is all. And will only be another way to make criminals out of legal people.  Who has the money to fight RIAA or MPAA?  Donald Trump maybe, but very few others.

I agree that artists should be compensated - I do not agree with SS tactics currently enjoyed by the organizations (not the artists who have little power themselves as well - even under this bill).

Sounds great. Marx sounded great too. Only a couple of problems: Value: Man takes trash and makes a work of art - value zero. Man takes a piece of art and turns it into trash. Value- zero. Reward - none. Penalty - none. Profit - none. The other problem is that people don't work where's there's no reward - why work day and night for nothing? You could sleep, and get the same result.

It'd be great if that worked, but that isn't the way people tick. Face it... how many Albert Schweitzers were there, not forgetting how many non-Schweitzers there were working and profiting to support him with donations? Can you create a society without money or reward/penalty? Sure. We're all angels out for the other guy's well being, not our own.

Sorry. That sort of idealism isn't practicable nor is it desirable. I'm with Jafo on this all the way. Rousseau - say, you quote him... guess he created something and managed to keep a hold of it too and probably earned some money from his writings. Where would we be without that reward system, I wonder.

Senator Wyden Come’s Out Against New PROTECT IP Bill

Leahy's Protect IP bill even worse than COICA

 Setting dangerous and possibly illegal precedents

Thus, with minimal court proceedings and perhaps without any opportunity for the defendant to respond or participate, the draft law would enable the Department of Justice or a private party to effectively shut down a nondomestic Web site, putting the burden on the owner/operator to prove that the site is not "dedicated to infringing activities" as defined in the law.

Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-20062419-38.html#ixzz1MeKlVWGD

Sounds to me like the US also wants to just start dropping bombs on the global internet to the cheers of the wealthy.

OMG that forums users are using copywrited images in their avatars, SHUT IT DOWN NOW.

I'm sorry but this is way over stated. Millions of people paint, write poetry, jam in garages, post ideas and thoughts on forums every single day knowing they will not get paid, knowing they will never make it big. Actors used to travel around like a carnival making next to nothing, better than manual labour I guess. Do you think a child colours with crayons because they get a bigger allowance. Get real.

Another example of not for profit artists

Who was this guy?
 Little appreciated during his lifetime, his fame grew in the years after his death. Today, he is widely regarded as one of history's greatest painters and an important contributor to the foundations of modern art.